I thought the debate had gone cold until the following anonymous comment arrived today beneath an entry entitled ‘Do I live a sinless life?’ (Originally posted on February 28th). The comment was in response to another anonymous commenter who goes by the pseudonym ‘Teackles’.
“Teackles, you should not be so timid. This is not just "your interpretation" it is the interpretation of the great majority of Christians (both now and down through the ages) that we will continue to sin throughout this life while we grow in Christ. Yes we strive for holiness, but in our broken way, as you say, and we will continue to struggle with sin, because Sin - the brokenness of all creation - is still a problem. Our depravity means that even our minds and our wills are compromised by the brokenness of the world. So my own decision to consecrate myself will never be perfect - this ability too is compromised by the fall. My ability to receive God's revelation - this is limited. Escaping this condition is not simply a matter of our choosing to submit to Christ; we are caught up in the drama of salvation-history, and the full consecration will be enabled when Christ has returned and brought to full fruition the redemption of all things.”When I read these words I couldn’t help thinking of the words of Herbert Booth when he wrote (SASB 303):
“All the memories of deeds gone by
Rise within me and thy power defy;
With a deathly chill ensnaring,
They would leave my soul despairing.
Saviour, take my hand, I cannot tell
How to stem the tides that round me swell,
How to ease my conscience, or to quell
My flaming heart.”
This sentiment expressed by Booth seems to mirror that expressed by the anonymous contributor above when he/she says “we strive for holiness, but in our broken way… we will continue to struggle with sin, because Sin - the brokenness of all creation - is still a problem.” However this is only verse two and the song writer concludes with the following stanza.
“All the rivers of thy grace I claim,
Over every promise write my name;
As I am I come, believing,
As thou art thou dost, receiving,
Bid me rise a free and pardoned slave,
Master o'er my sin, the world, the grave,
Charging me to preach thy power to save
To sinbound souls.”
My saviour from sin is neither death nor the return of Christ – but Jesus himself, as Paul puts it ‘Christ in me’ is the key to holiness. As long as I am committed to Christ, believe in him, trust him and obey him then I am saved from all sin. The fact that the ‘majority’ of those in the church do not agree with this truth doesn’t stop it from being true. The problem is that most of us find it easier to measure Christianity by our experience (‘all the memories of deeds gone by’) rather than by the truth of God’s word.
Personally, I find this comment encouraging and worrying – encouraging because it clearly identifies the strategy of the enemy and worrying because it is, as the writer suggests, a majority view.
As Wesley said (SASB 407)
“Though earth and Hell the word gainsay,
The word of God can never fail;
The Lamb shall take my sins away,
'Tis certain, though impossible;
The thing impossible shall be,
All things are possible to me.”
Yours set apart, by Christ, for the lost, in the Army.
10 comments:
What an inadequate salvation anonymous suggests we have been provided with.
a) "we strive for holiness but in our broken way...."
Why do so many Christian insist that salvation is through faith but living a holy life is down to our striving to achieving it?
b) We continue to struggle with sin because sin, the brokeness of all creation is still a problem....
Why did Jesus say, "It is finished" if there was a problem with sin that wasn't overcome by the cross?
Paul deals with this when he says, "If anyone is in Christ he is a new creation, the old has gone and the new has come."
c) "my own decision to consecrate myself will never be perfect"
I read once that there are four aspects to me
the part known to all
the part known to me and not to others
the part known to others but unknown to me
the part that is unknown to all but God.
My understanding of my heart is inadequate and in that sense my decision to consecrate myself will never be perfect but surely I can simply come to God on a daily basis and lay what I know and what I don't know about myself on his altar. It is not a worthy offering in itself but is acceptable because of the blood of Jesus. But just as in the OT the offering on the altar was consumed by fire so I believe through faith is the offering of my life. My offerng is not only accepted but transformed through the fire of the Holy Spirit.
Where the growing in holiness takes place is that the Holy Spirit is at work within to enable me to be honest about the parts known to me and not to others, to receive help from others about the stuff known to them and not to me. And in his time and in his way he also reveals what is only known to him and asks permission to deal with it and use it. As I am fond of quoting, "Our consecration must keep pace with God's revelation" (William Booth)
All still goes on the altar for the fire to consume and transform.
Sorry to go on a bit.
God bless
Carol
I can't seem to get your blog to accept my blogger username so hence commenting as another anonymous but it's me!
Carol
well, i agree with you Andrew. you can clearly see on my blog from March 13th, that the majority of people do not believe that it is possible to live freed from sin.
i'm a bit shocked at the number of comments that leaned toward that theology, and i'm waiting to address it on my blog, but i'm not quite sure what to say.
one of the most important things in teachings holiness is that Scripture trumps experience thing. i think that's key.
fight on.
I find that there is so much opposition to holiness. And a lot of the time, there is no answer to the negative responses because they are quite simply wrong, but you're not allowed to say that these days :o)
Even in our corps there are a few eyebrows raised at the suggestion of living free of sin.
Absolutely Olivia, scripture trumps experience, but experience should follow scripture. There are so few testimonies of living free that we don't think it even can be an experience.
Yours in the campaign for clean living salvationists,
Andrew C
CAC,
As usual your approach is pointed.
Although I would like to stand up and tell you that you ARE allowed to say what you think.
That is an important part of living in a christian community.
I may not agree with your opinions but I am very keen for you to be able to express them.
The reason that there are eyebrows raised is that your views are not shared by many.
Last week I asked a mentor of mine, a great theologian (Dr of Theology)
about his view of the possiblilty of living a sinless life.
His response (after he shook his head) was very similar to the one in the body of this original post.
Your veiws seem only to be shared by a few like minded bloggers.
Is it possible that perhaps the minority may be wrong in this occasion?
Teackles
I also asked a 'great theologian' (if academic qualifications are your measure of credibility then they are equally, if not more qualified than your mentor. haha, should we start listing letters after names??) about his view of the possibility of living a life of christian perfection.
he said the opposite to your 'theologian'. therefore what?
pray about it, teackles. do you really think sin has won the victory? wow. doesn't that depress you? my God wins that fight every time.. can I introduce him to you?
I don't doubt that living a sinless life is possible. Unfortunately, that handful of people, who I have met in person, who claim the "blessing of a clean heart" have all failed to live up to their claims in front of me. Often the chief sin that comes across is one of arrogance, nearly always the attitude that comes before a fall!
Having said that I still believe a sinless life is possible. Why else would it be talked about in the Bible? I have also been privileged to meet, again a handful of people, who live lives that appear to be sinless. However, these people seem to be more aware of their propensity towards temptation than many.
I think one of the dangers of advocating a sinless life, is that it comes across sometimes as if the person is living a life free of temptation. Someone who says "I don't sin" rarely qualifies it with "but I am often tempted to sin".
Number 3,
My comment was not asking for a "My Dad can beat up your Dad" slanging match.
I was just thought his response was interesting.
I asked him without knowing what he would say.
I am not saying you are wrong....just that many christians share my views and don't agree with you guys.
Depressed?
No not at all.
It is freeing to realise that our sin is a normal part of being human.
Of course we as christians should strive for lessen sin in our lives but I don't believe that we can be sinless and either do many christians.
"my God wins that fight every time.. can I introduce him to you?"
Man, Number 3 this is pretty harsh.
Are you trying to say that you know God but I don't?
Teackles
1)temptation is not sin. Even Jesus was tempted
2)a true testimony of a clean heart will carry with it humilty
3)Andrew Clark, DipHE (Theol) DipHE (SAOT). Who cares? No-one. Part of the salvationist contribution to theology is the possibility of the pure life.
4)please note that salvationists (and Wesleyans for that matter) do not advocate sinless perfection. We advocate Christian perfection. There is a difference worth noting.
5)You can't say that there aren't many believers in the wesleyan holiness position simply because there are only maybe 5 Army bloggers who bother to blog on it. :o) Doesn't add up.
6)sin is no longer part of the Christian nature. We are not sinners who happen to be Christians, we are holy Christians who on occassion sin...but as we say, this is totally avoidable. Its not the case of lessening sin...it is keeping sin (and temptation) as far away from us as possible by the Holy Spirit and cleansing by the blood.
yours
Andrew Clark
Now that dear Captain is probably the best explanation I've seen of our Holiness position, especially part 6.
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